Episode 67: You would not believe how much water went into making your iPhone

Molly Wood Voice-Over:

Welcome to Everybody in the Pool, the podcast where we dive deep into the innovative solutions and the brilliant minds who are tackling the climate crisis head-on. I'm Molly Wood.

Now, we mostly focus on carbon emitting sectors and solutions on this show, but this week I want to talk about water. The water that keeps the lights on, fuels our factories, cools data centers, powers semiconductor manufacturing wind its way through our industrial world, only to come out looking like well, it’s not a pretty picture.

There’s a massive, invisible river of water behind almost everything we do, and everything we consume. Industrial water use makes up nearly 20% of global water consumption. And as a result, trillions of gallons of water are polluted with chemicals, dyes, heavy metals, every day. Clean water is and will continue to be as precious as gold in many places. So today is as good a time as any to talk about the simplest damn solution of all, cleaning and re-using water instead of wasting it or dumping it out to become all of our problem. Let’s get to it.

Anurag Bajpayee:

My name is Anurag Bajpayee. I'm a founder and the CEO of Gradiant. At Gradiant, we like to call ourselves a technology -driven end -to -end water solutions company. And we focus on dealing with the most important challenges in water. 

Molly Wood:

What brought you to this? water? Before I ask you about water and what we don't understand about it, which it sounds like is a lot from your perspective. What drew you to this in the first place?

Anurag Bajpayee:

So it's a little bit of serendipity and a little bit of personal passion, I would say, a combination. The story is never too simple. I was studying mechanical engineering as a PhD student at MIT. I was very interested in doing something that was related to the energy environment, cleaning up our planet.

you know, something along those lines, I didn't know exactly what. As it turned out, that almost by accident, I started working in water, doing some experiments that we did, led us into a physical concept that we thought could actually be used to clean and desalinate water. And so without planning, I ended up working in water research.

But I've always had a great admiration and respect and liking for the natural world, whether it's the forests, the mountains, the oceans. And if you think the one thing that is really constant across all of those is water. So it isn't that I was specifically I knew that I was passionate about water, but I always knew that I was passionate about the natural world, and I always admired and respected the natural world. That combined with the serendipity of ending up in water research at MIT is what led me and then what led Gradiant into this.

Molly Wood:

And then I feel like we should specify that the water usage that you're addressing is primarily industrial water, right? Talk to me about the type of water that Gradiant is working with.

Anurag Bajpayee:

that you're addressing is primarily industrial water, right? Talk to me about the type of water, the gradiant is something Absolutely, Molly, that's very well put. we like to say, if you think of the water industry as a pyramid, down at the bottom of the pyramid are these really big volumes of water, but lower complexity, like sewage, like domestic wastewater. If you go up the pyramid,

the volumes of water will get smaller.

I there's still large volumes, we're talking millions of gallons a day, but relatively smaller compared to a city wastewater treatment plant. So even though the volumes get smaller as you go up the pyramid, the levels of contamination and therefore the complexity of that water goes up exponentially. And that's the water that matters. And when I say that's the water that matters, what it means is, you know, we can argue that sewage is relatively clean water. You know, if you drink sewage, you get sick, you you might take a medicine, antibiotic, and you're fine. Whereas if you manage to drink water from a petrochemical refinery discharge or water that contains hydrofluoric acid from a semiconductor fab, then suffice to say the consequences could be rather irreversible. 

And I think that goes for the same thing goes for that water that is highly contaminated getting into our environment. The effects of that, the impact of that is much more serious and much more long term. And so that is the water that we are dealing with, the problem that we are solving. In terms of, so that was the environmental story, but also in just pure economic value, because that water is so contaminated, because that water is so complex, it's sometimes a couple of orders or even three orders of magnitude more expensive to deal with than the simpler water.

So in terms of both the economic and environmental, it's that top of the pyramid of the water sector that really matters. And that's where gradiant's focus you can do, you know, we can clean all the sewage we want, which we do. But if you're not addressing the issues with the highest contamination water, then we're not really making a dent in the state of water on this planet. And that water is often the industrial effluent.

Molly Wood:

Right. So what were the methods for dealing with that water and what are you offering that is different?

Anurag Bajpayee:

So if we go a couple of decades back, maybe more. And by the way, even today, some of that watcher just goes to the environment, unfortunately. Now.

Molly Wood:

Right. Like I sort of knew you were going to say that on some level, but I was hoping you weren't, I, but I think we know that. And that's why we all have forever chemicals in our bodies.

Anurag Bajpayee:

Yeah, and that's right. So I we'll definitely come to forever chemicals as well. is a very important issue that we are tackling right now. We also think we've cracked the code on that. But yes, traditionally, a lot of that watcher was just getting discharged to the environment. That has changed, and especially the types of customers that Gradiant works for in the industrial sector. So these are names like Micron and Infineon in the semiconductor world.

These are names like GSK in the pharmaceutical industry. These are names like Coca -Cola, AB and Bev in the food and beverage sector. These companies have recognized the value of water, both environmentally and economically are doing what needs to be done to really mitigate their water footprint, to recycle as much water as they can, to reduce their dependence on the public water supply and to reduce the impact of that activity on the environment.

If you don't discharge that water traditionally, you could also evaporate it. Evaporation, boiling, you would, distillation has existed for a long time. And you can do that. It's just that that is a very expensive process, energy -wise and materials -wise. And it just becomes prohibitive to actually do that and still thrive as a business.

Molly Wood:

Right. So what you enable is the ability to clean the effluent, but it sounds like also then reuse it. Right. So it's not just like clean it and then let it go and pay for more water. It's clean it and keep using it over and over.

Anurag Bajpayee:

the effluence, but it sounds like also then we use it. Absolutely. It's not just like clean it and then let it go and pay for more water. Correct. Correct. Yeah, because see, if you are cleaning the water and you're cleaning it effectively, which gradiant does? And I would say which gradiant does better than anyone else today? Then you've got good water. You own your water and you can then recycle it. So we think of it and many of our customers think of water not just as a problem, but as an opportunity

If you can clean your wastewater, you suddenly have a source of water that is in your own hands. You're not depending on someone else. And when you take the example, for example, chip fab, there's a lot of new chip fabs that are being built today, especially in the US. So therefore, it's a relevant topic of discussion. An average size, medium -sized chip fab would use 10 ,000 gallons of water per day, which is equivalent to about 300 ,000 households' worth of consumption.

By doing what we do, so two things. One, cleaning up the wastewater that is going out of the fab, and then cleaning it to a level where it becomes what's called ultra -pure water. We can actually recycle it and use it in that chip manufacturing process. And by doing both of these things, by tying the loop around, we can actually recycle over 98, 99 % of that water. So drastically reducing the water consumption of the fab, as well as minimizing or eliminating the environmental impact of that wastewater going out into. So I actually, wanted to find something that I could easily connect with.

So we all have phones, right, smartphones. Can you imagine this thing required 3 ,500 gallons of water to produce? And what that means is, take a medium -sized household, let's say four people who use four iPhones. Those four iPhones need as much water to produce as that household would consume in one year. So without knowing, and especially if you're replacing an iPhone every one to two years, without knowing just by the sheer fact that you're using a smartphone, you're actually using twice as much water as you think you're using. That's just the iPhone, by the way. I'm not counting the laptops, the TVs, the cars, and all these things are just where microelectronics are used. Then you've got the food you're eating, the drinks you're having, the clothes you're wearing. T -shirts are...

Molly Wood:

Right. Well, even all the stupid water that's in your toothpaste and your laundry detergent, which could be dry.

Anurag Bajpayee:

And the reality is you need it. Everything needs water. And it's OK. We can do this as long as we clean that water, we recycle that water, we do it responsibly, and we commit to it. I just wanted to use that just because I didn't know that number up until very recently. And I think that's something that people can more relate with than you know.

Molly Wood:

Yeah.

Anurag Bajpayee:

a chip factory that's somewhere out there.

Molly Wood:

No, that's outstanding. And I want to start shopping by water use. Like, I want these to all become metrics that they are required to disclose so that I'm not buying products that are not cleaning and reusing their water, you know?

Anurag Bajpayee:

By the way, the smartphone that uses 3 ,500 gallons of water, if each factory will do what we are doing and recycle 98%, 99 % of the water, then that 3 ,500 becomes 35 gallons, which is much more tolerable than 3 ,500.

Molly Wood:

Hmm. Mm -hmm. Dear Apple, we need to have a talk. Mm -hmm.

Anurag Bajpayee:

By the way, is a, I mean, true story, there is an Apple manufacturing facility that we do clean and recycle water for. One, one, one. We'll get to a few.

Molly Wood:

a few, okay. But just one. -huh. Okay, all right. We'll keep discussing Apple. No, that is an outstanding. Again, I mean, think it's so compelling to realize how little we think about water this way.

Anurag Bajpayee:

I mean, I think like it's.

Molly Wood:

OK, so previously, so as we walk through the kind of like from no solution to your solution, there may have been a universe where there was just dirty water and it got dumped and that's horrible. Then there may have been a universe where there was some filtering and cleaning of that water, but it wasn't clean enough to come back into use or there was not a mechanism for easily reusing it. And so you'd have slightly.

Anurag Bajpayee:

There may have been a university. then there may have been a universe where there was some filtering and cleaning of that water, it wasn't clean enough to come back into use, or there was not a mechanism basically. Well, I will say it was without actually going to the more expensive methods like I described, it wasn't really even ideal to discharge into the environment. Look, if the water is

Molly Wood:

Right. OK. So like slightly cleaner, but still not good.

Anurag Bajpayee:

good enough to discharge into the environment, it's actually good enough for most uses. Now, in the case of the specific semiconductor industry, OK, you don't need ultra pure water to discharge to the environment. You need pure water. You can't discharge water that you will say, I can't drink this water. I can't use this water. But yes, I can discharge it to the environment. It doesn't really work. Because if you do, eventually it's coming back to you.

Molly Wood:

Right.

Molly Wood:

Mm -hmm.

Anurag Bajpayee:

Even if we think entirely selfishly, this is our shared water resource, right? So if you're dumping less than ideal water, well, guess what? You're using less than ideal water at some point.

Molly Wood:

Right, right. OK, so you come along and you have this solution, which is clean the water to the extent that you can reuse it, even in scenarios. And I want to just know more about this, about the semiconductor fab water, where it has to be unbelievably clean. But it sounds like your key breakthrough is the cleaning and also the price, the economics.

Anurag Bajpayee:

clean the water to the extent that you can reuse it, even in scenarios. Yeah, so it's the ability to clean the toughest waters. It's the ability to clean water to extremely pure or ultra pure levels. It's the ability to do it in an energy efficient and therefore a sustainable and environmentally friendly way and do it in a way that it's affordable and economically viable. See, we first and foremost, like I said, we exist to conserve water for generations to come. But we also recognize that in order to do that, this has to be an economically viable option.

It is only then that it will be adopted at scale and it will be adopted widely across the world and across industries, which I think to a large extent we have now shown we can do because we do work across the world. We work across countries. We work for Fortune 100 clients who've become repeat customers of ours. So yes, it is the ability to clean it, the ability to do so in an energy efficient and environmentally friendly manner while doing it at a cost that is affordable and makes business sense.

Molly Wood Voice-Over:

Time for a quick break. When we come back, we’ll talk a little about how the process works … and how Gradiant is turning its attention to a huge issue that affects every living thing on earth - forever chemicals.

Molly Wood Voice-Over:

Welcome back to Everybody in the Pool. We’re talking with Anurag Bajpayee, the CEO of Gradiant. Let’s dive back in.

Molly Wood:

What can you tell us that we will both understand but won't give away all your secrets about how the process works? What's the special sauce or the breakthrough that you came up with that made this possible?

Anurag Bajpayee:

What's the special sauce or the breakthrough that you came up with that made this possible? So, Molly, that's a great question. And I think the answer is not so great, because one thing that I will say that makes Gradiant quite unique is that if you go back in the history of water industry, the recent decades haven't seen that much innovation and technology. Whereas in the last 10 years, Gradiant's actually taken multiple technologies from an idea on paper to commercial operation and commercial viability within a matter of decades. So we have technologies that span the entire value chain of water.

So starting from what we call pretreatment, so some basic level treatment, to disinfection, self -explanatory to desalination, where we're removing salts with membranes and so on, to what's called brine concentration. So you're reducing the volume of the brine drastically, i .e. recovering more and more and more clean water. Zero liquid discharge, which is the other end of the spectrum where we actually end up with no liquid. So we recover all of the liquid and you end up with a solid waste. And then finally, a solid -street man technology as well, where we can take that waste and instead of incinerating it in a very energy -intensive and environmentally unfriendly way, we can oxidize it and actually render it much less or even completely harmless.

So this end -to -end approach, whether it's with developing technologies, or with providing solution is what Gradiants built on. And that's what our customers read, right? So remember, most of our customers aren't water companies. They are, like I said, semiconductor fabs or they're refineries or they're pharmaceutical drug manufacturers or automobile manufacturers. They look at us as their water partner who can take care of the whole problem. So they can focus on what they're good at, which is their core business.

Anurag Bajpayee (16:51.567)

And we can focus on what we're good at. 

Molly Wood:

It's so interesting because as you're describing this, it's clear that there is a different application of science that is due to the brilliance of you and your co -founder combined with the care and interest in doing this at all. Like it sounds like what you're saying is that some of this probably could have been happening if people believed that water was in fact as valuable as it is.

Anurag Bajpayee:

It sounds like what you're saying. Yeah. You know, honestly, Molly, that's a good point you make. And look, maybe we did something right. But also, think we had the right sort of, you know, the right thing in mind that we had to do the right thing. But we were also at the right time and right place. Some people ask us why. hasn't it been done before? And sometimes the answer is, well, it hasn't been done because it hasn't been done. We're not the first people to come around and think about science creatively or about water.

But I think we were practical. We had the passion and interest in doing the right thing.

And I think I will say the practicality, Molly, we started with one technology which I described to you. We invented a second one, which the counterflow reverse osmosis. And all these other technologies that now create the entire suite is a result of practicality. We also have, because we're not driven by a need or a desire to commercialize our technology or to see that work. We are driven by the outcome, which is to clean the water, which is to recycle the water, which is to allow industries and communities to thrive together, which is to give nature water back.

So whichever way it is, we will do it. what we started with only works in certain situations, not in others, well, we'll do something different in other situations. If, by the way, we find something that's better than what we started with, we'll do that tied to the way of doing it or to our own innovations or any sort of pride we have in that, but we are tied to the interest, passion and the pride we take in the outcome of what we're doing.

Molly Wood:

Amazing. And then in terms of other product development, you are now tackling forever chemicals, which is the thing that everybody hears about when they think about water.

Anurag Bajpayee:

Yeah, so again, because we're a technology company, because we really develop technology, and technology can have many uses. By the way, PFAS is very closely related to water. It's related to what we have done over the last half a century. And now PFAS is everywhere. And this is a fact. I'm not making this up. Polar bears have you know have been measured to have PFAS in them and I know it's it's exactly that's that's our reaction that's right there are other things that weren't enough so you know here's some PFAS too that said again we are firm believers that with the right mindset with

Molly Wood:

Like they haven't suffered enough, honestly.

Anurag Bajpayee:

the vision to do the right thing and with human ingenuity, you can reverse the clock. I've talked about reversing the over and over again because it really, for me personally, and I know for all of our people, this is what drives us. So we came up with this method now, which not only concentrates, concentrating meaning removing the PFAS, but then actually

goes and destroys it. So PFAS is a very interesting molecule. It has a hydrophobic end and a hydrophilic end.

So what we do is we use a multitude of bubbles to actually concentrate the PFAS. pick it up and pull it into a foam at the top of the water, the source water. And this PFAS has it because it has a hydrophilic end and a hydrophobic end. So when you create a bubble and there's air and then water around it, so there's an air -water interface and then the rest is. So what happens is the hydrophilic end of the molecule will go to the air -water interface, the surface of the bubble, and the hydrophobic will want to run away from the water.

So it's inside the bubble. So that's how it gets trapped. And that's how we remove it, removal or concentration of PFAS is where most solutions stop. Now, we're not the only ones that can do it. Others can do it too. But most others will stop there. For us, that's not good enough. We believe in take, you're just removing the problem from one place to the other. You're not fixing the problem. So we went ahead and we took that concentrate and we actually

Molly Wood:

because it's still gonna go somewhere forever.

Anurag Bajpayee:

Right. put it between two proprietary electrodes. So we spent a lot of time developing the material of that electrode. It was almost like the way Edison figured out several different ways of not making a light bulb and then the one way of making it. So we actually worked with a lot of different electrodes, but then finally found the right kind of electrodes that allows us to go to the overpotentials that we essentially are creating lightning.

We're creating tons of electricity between those electrodes to the level that it actually breaks the bonds in PFAS, the CF, the carbon fluoride bond, which is one of the strongest bonds in chemistry. Once it breaks that, you render the PFAS chemicals harmless. So there is no waste. It is completely destroyed. And you're done with the problem. This, we are now rolling it out with the multinational customer. So I can't say who exactly and when it will turn on. But in the near future, we will have deployed it, both concentration and destruction. And that's why we like to call this solution, Forever Chemicals, Forever Gone.

Molly Wood:

I mean, that is so, it almost kills me to think that you have to sell that to anybody as opposed to like all governments being forced to buy that. mean, know, there's sort of part of me that's like, yeah, I'm sorry. Like that should be, there should be a rule.

Anurag Bajpayee:

So by the way, there are rules. There are rules. For example, earlier this year, EPA came up

Molly Wood:

Or like a lot of rules. Yeah, exactly.

I, the way, I do not mean to suggest universe that I'm some kind of giant communist here or that I think there's a world government that should force solutions. I'm just saying like, how do we get that out faster? That was, that is just my enthusiasm for this.

Anurag Bajpayee

Ha ha ha.

No, no, look, look, there are rules. And I think even as a society, very few of us even knew about PFAS, I would say even 10 years ago. I mean, I am in the water industry. I did my PhD in water. When I was doing my PhD, I did not know about PFAS. I did not, know, it's the honest answer. So now that we know about it,

Molly Wood:

Wow.

Anurag Bajpayee:

Now that we also are starting to know that there are ways to fix it, there are rules that we are seeing. So EPA came up with a ruling that everyone has three years to remove PFAS and meet the standards. Now, obviously, it's a very ambitious timeline of three years, but you've got to start with an ambition goal. And then, OK, maybe we're not done in three years. Maybe we're done in six or nine or 10. But the hope is that within our lifetimes, we can fix this problem. And we firmly believe we can. Again, turning the clock back, giving nature its water back. We have taken that water. We've put stuff in it that was never meant to be there. But that's OK. I mean, it's not great, but it is what it is. Now we have a solution which can take it away, which can destroy the problem, which can restore. the water of this planet to what it used to be. And frankly, not that long ago.

Molly Wood:

Yeah, I know. I've done a lot of damage real fast. You can't see it very well, but I have the temperature lines behind me in my studio just to remind me how much damage we have done and how short a time. And then finally before...

Anurag Bajpayee:

But again, the only thing I will add is only it is fixable. And as long as we put our hearts and minds to it, we put our collective ingenuity, technological prowess, and the funds to do it, we can do it. I was saying this right. The other examples of some things like this. There was a time when white lions had become extinct in the wild, but then some people decided that they wanted to protect them, they wanted to breed them. And a few years ago in South Africa, maybe after a hiatus of a hundred years, white lions roamed the wild again. so there are examples where humans with the right intentions and with the right abilities have been able to reverse the clock. We have been able to reverse the clock in part. There's a long, long way to go. But I think we can do it. I think this is doable.

Molly Wood:

Before I start crying, I'm going to let you go there. Anurag, thank you so much. The company is called Gradiant. Where can people find you? Ideally, potential large customers immediately.

Anurag Bajpayee:

Go to... I mean, go to gradiant .com. You can read all about us. You can read our history, our technologies, also what we stand for. You also see some of the customers we work with. So you know that they're doing the right thing. And...

Molly Wood:

Shop accordingly, my friends. Shop accordingly.

Molly Wood Voice-Over:

That's it for this episode of Everybody in the Pool. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you for all your good emails about decarbonizing your homes! Once I get permission, I’ll put some of them in the newsletter. Email me other thoughts and suggestions to in at everybody in the pool dot com and find all the latest episodes and more at everybody in the pool dot com, the website. And if you want to become a subscriber and get an ad free version of the show, hit the link in the description in your podcast app of choice. Thank you to those of you who already have. See you next week.