Episode 66: Sealed: Making it affordable to decarbonize your home

Molly Wood Voice-Over:

Welcome to Everybody in the Pool, the podcast where we dive deep into the innovative solutions and the brilliant minds who are tackling the climate crisis head-on. I'm Molly Wood.

Ok so this is the second of a two-part series about companies that are helping decarbonize homes with solar energy, backup batteries, electrified heating and cooling, and other sustainable home upgrades.

Many of the startups in this space quickly realized that the best way to do this at scale is not so much to try to go from home to home to home that’s slow and inefficient compared to a business to business approach that is help the bnusiness who could be installing these upgrades so that first of all they’re more likely to want to suggest sustainable alternatives, and second, the customer gets the best possible contractor for the job.

This week, we’ll talk with a company that’s doing something similar to what last week’s guest offers contractors and installers but with a particular focus on what is quickly becoming the most enticing, but also the most complicated part of the equation, all those juicy tax incentives and rebates. Here we go.

Lauren Salz:

I'mLauren Salz. I'm the co -founder and CEO of Sealed, and we're the easy button for contractors to access energy efficiency and electrification rebates.

Molly Wood:

So give us the history of Sealed because I first became aware of it when I was like, crap, I need to do something about my house, which is totally inefficient, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it sounds like, you sort of started in one place and have pivoted to another place, both places being incredibly necessary right now as people try to figure out how to decarbonize their residences.

Lauren Salz:

Definitely. So we've been around for over 10 years. We've had a bunch of different products over the years. But the entire time, we've been very focused on residential energy efficiency and electrification. And the reason for that is that it's around 20 % of greenhouse gas emissions in the country. So we've always been focused on solving that problem from a business model and software perspective versus a hardware perspective. Because there's already great hardware that solves the problem. And so, you know, the biggest challenge has been to get consumers and contractors to adopt heat pumps and insulation on mess.

Molly Wood:

Right. Yep, keep going, keep going.

Lauren Salz:

So, yeah, and so when we originally started the company, we launched with what we called guaranteed energy savings model. It more of a insurance type product where the customer was responsible for finding a contractor and their own financing, but we would guarantee a certain amount of energy savings from the project. And then eventually that evolved into us directly financing the project.

And then I think what we're probably best known for is kind of our very unique financing model where we would cover the upfront cost of energy saving home improvements and get paid back with the energy reductions over time. So we did that for a pretty long time. That was a successful business. But ultimately we launched Sealed Pro last summer and it was a really big success. So we've pivoted the entire business to

Molly Wood:

Yeah, which is kind of startup dream, right? You're like, well, we added a product improvement and it turns out it was so necessary that it became the whole product. So tell me what Sealed Pro is and what you're now evolving into.

Lauren Salz:

Yeah, so Sealed Pro is focused on contractors who are really the frontline workers of electrification of homes. And we make it as easy as possible for them to access rebates. It's one of the things that we noticed from our direct -to -consumer business is that the biggest thing that would impact our conversion is really how much did it cost and how much of that cost was covered by incentives. It was just a huge driver of business for us.

But the other thing we knew firsthand is that how complicated these rebate programs were to deal with. And there's a few problems. One is that it can be pretty unclear what rebates a homeowner is actually qualified for and then how they interact with each other. Sizing the rebate, how big it's going to be based on the energy savings. And then, I mean, an incredible amount of paperwork and box checking goes on.

And if you get it wrong, you won't get paid for the rebate and you'll lose money on that project. And I think one of the biggest pain points we had as a business in terms of rebates is that the payment timing was so unknown. Sometimes we would get paid really quickly within a few weeks and sometimes we would have outstanding rebates going six, nine months. We would have hundreds of thousands of dollars outstanding. And so we actually ended up creating a product that we would have used as a customer for our direct to consumer business.

Molly Wood:

I assume that a lot of this landscape changed and this rebate product got even more necessary after the passage of the Inflation Reduction Act, but there were already rebates in place, right? It sounds like this was probably already kind of a messy ecosystem that got even more enticing in some ways because of the IRA, but also much more complicated. Is that reasonable?

Lauren Salz:

That is correct. actually, our business today has a lot of traction. We have submitted millions of rebates. And none of the money from the IRA is live and available today. I think that's going to change pretty soon. yeah, without the IRA, there's already around $3 billion of rebates available for our target customers. So it's a pretty big existing market. Those dollars will continue to be there even after the IRA is done is around 10 year legislation. But I think the IRA getting passed in 2022 is what opened our eyes the possibility of this new product. Especially because with IRA, the biggest rebates are paid based on either the model energy savings or the actual energy savings. And that's something that we're particularly good

Lauren Salz:

Calculating, quantified, and taking the risk on that. Yeah, because for our direct consumer business, we've been doing that for the past 10 years, and we're really experts on energy savings. so originally, the vision was that we would launch the product with the IRA, or in conjunction with the IRA. And it's two years later, and most of the money is not available yet. But then what we realized last year is actually we can do this with existing programs. We don't need to wait for the IRA.

Molly Wood:

So I obviously want to ask you more about the IRA, which is everybody's of like white whale of trying to understand. And you're the closest. But let's start with what's existing. Because I mean, think a big part of your business is also education. Like, I didn't know there were $3 billion. I I sort of knew, right? But where do those other $3 billion in rebates come from, and how do they generally.

Lauren Salz:

Yeah, the biggest source of those rebates is utilities. And they are concentrated in certain geographic areas. Like some utilities have a ton of rebates and others have almost nothing. But that market has been around for a long time and it's been growing consistently every single year. This is, remind me where you live and who your utilities are in California.

Molly Wood:

I'm in California, so PG &E, yeah.

Lauren Salz:

PG &E, yeah. So in many places where you're a PG &E customer, are incentives available for heat pumps that PG &E funds and that you are paying for as a rate payer on your electric bill and gas bill every single month. You are paying for these rebates. California is one of the states that has the largest amount of rebates, actually. And most consumers don't know about them. A lot of contractors do know about them, but we estimate that less than 10 % tractors are using rebates currently. And there's a really good reason for

Molly Wood:

And the reason is because they're so complicated. What you said, right? So complicated, it's slow to pay.

Lauren Salz:

Yeah, the soft costs are just, the soft costs are not worth it in most cases because of the risk of promising the customer a rebate and not getting paid on it later, especially because in California, sometimes there's small rebates, know, $500, $800 from a very local rebate. And sometimes these rebates could be $20 ,000 plus. And while you can imagine a $20 ,000 rebate really helps close a sale. But if you end up not getting paid for that, then you are losing your shirt on that deal. And it will take you a lot of jobs to make up for that $20 ,000 loss. And so where we come in is we can say, we're going to guarantee you the rebate is going to be this amount. You don't have to wait to get paid for it. We're going to pay it right after you install the project. And then we're going to deal with all the noise on the rebate program side on our end. And you're just never going to hear about any of

Molly Wood:

So it sounds like there were kind of two problems happening. Like on the homeowner side, people would get that initial price for a heat pump and be horrified not want to do it. And then the contractor would say, well, I don't really understand the rebate landscape anyway. So I will just direct you to a plain old natural gas heater like you were going to get before. And then everybody loses. And so, yeah.

Lauren Salz:

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And the thing with electrification of heating is that someone is only going to replace their heating system maybe once every 15 years. So every homeowner that's getting another gas furnace today, the earliest time they're going to get a heat pump is probably 15 years from now. And so I think that's where rebates have a pretty central role is getting people over the edge to do it today. And I think giving the contractors that confidence to offer and sell on the benefits of a heat pump, because with the rebate, it really can bring it down close to cost parity.

Molly Wood:

So talk about the incentive for the contractor, because it sounds like they could potentially just keep selling us natural gas heaters and air conditioners forever. What's the incentive for them to go, no, actually wanted, know, other than caring about electrification.

Lauren Salz:

Good. They could, but yeah, but carrying out electrification doesn't drive business decisions for most people. doesn't drive consumer decisions either for most people. There's a certain probably set up like very wealthy people who it can, but most people just can't really afford to think like that. I actually think the biggest reason why contractors are interested in doing this is because they actually know that electrification and heat pumps are the future.

Molly Wood:

Right.

Lauren Salz:

and they want to figure out how they can get ahead of that and be part of it. That's one class of contractors. And then other class of contractors kind of see that with the IRA coming very soon, is that there will probably be a consumer behavior change. At least that's one of the goals of the IRA is to drive both consumer and contractor behavior change. And so the thought is that people can get ready in advance of that you know, it's intimidating to try to sell a system that's much more expensive than a gas furnace.

So what's in it for the contractors? One is that they get to kind of adapt the future a little bit more quickly than some of their competitors. other is that they can sell a larger system. And then depending on the utility program, sometimes there is a contractor award as well. So sometimes a rebate program can allow both the contractor to sell larger projects while giving the customer a pretty big discount on it, while also making more money per project, not just on an absolute basis, but on percentage basis as well. It's possible for them to actually increase the margins that they're making. And one of the goals of the IRA is to spur more HVAC contractors to center their businesses around heat pumps. And one of the best ways to do that is make it really, profitable to sell heat pumps.

Molly Wood:

So talk to me a little about the IRA then. None of that money has been distributed yet. let's start with what you know about that. Is it just because it was like such a big bill and a whole bunch of systems had to be built to even start to distribute that money?

Lauren Salz:

Yes, I mean, it's such a large amount of money and, you know, there's a fair amount of guidance and regulation around it and it's getting distributed through the states. So the DOE has put out guidance and states have started to file their applications and actually some applications have been approved. But none of the money from homes, which is where some larger rebates are, is live yet. We expect that to change over the course of the next three to six months. But honestly, it's a lot of work and states are doing their best, but there's never been money like this deployed at this scale for residential energy efficiency and electrification. So it's just a really big challenge. But we do expect some states to be live

Molly Wood:

I'm going to go back and ask you a question out of order. What is the, just to put a super fine point on it, what's the incentive for utilities to offer rebates on heat pumps?

Lauren Salz:

I mean, one big reason is grid resiliency. For heat pumps and energy efficiency is super important to make the grid more flexible. then, know, utilities are regulated monopolies and there's a public policy interest in shifting people more towards electric, which can be powered by renewables. So lot of that is driven by regulators.

Molly Wood:

Right, and is the grid resiliency part of it just the fact that they use less energy? Like it's sort of, you know, and this is the fine point part, right, where you hear those warnings that are like, it's really hot and everybody's about to turn on their air conditioning, and that is going to dramatically strain the grid. And so even though electrification.

Lauren Salz:

way less energy.

Molly Wood:

creates an energy draw, it still is massively more efficient than what's already in houses.

Lauren Salz:

It is massively more efficient. I mean, you take someone who just has a traditional air conditioning system versus someone who has a heat pump, the heat pump is so much more efficient. So if you think about the hottest days of the year, you're better off having a million heat pumps than a million traditional

Molly Wood:

Right, which is why they're willing to pay us to use less energy, basically. Yep. Yep.

Lauren Salz:

Exactly. Yeah. the cooling and heating load efficiencies from PPUMS can be over

Molly Wood:

Dang. What if you could rename heat pumps before I move on, what would you call them? I know you talk about this all the time. Cause they also cool everybody, they also cool.

Lauren Salz:

man, that's a really tough question. That's a really tough question. I know. And it's funny actually, around the time of the new year, was, know, Fortune puts out predictions for every year and mine was that there'd be a summarize series national bait over renaming the heat pump. And I haven't heard any great ideas for it. I don't have any great ideas for it. I just like, especially as one of the biggest benefits of heat pumps is that you can cool your home. So it's, it's a, I know, I know, think it is, especially in the Pacific Northwest, where a lot of people are wanting to get AC for the first time. We all really want them to get heat pumps. So I know, Do you have any good ideas for that one?

Molly Wood:

Right, it's energy efficient air conditioning. Like it's crazy that we, know totally.

Molly Wood:

Yeah, I know. No, I mean, we all got used to saying things like HVAC. So it's possible that it's more of an education question than a branding question. But it does seem, I mean, I guess you could just say a super energy efficient heating and cooling system, right? Like if you were going to tell people that, but you still need a name, right?

Lauren Salz:

No, it's kind of a mouthful. And something that has more of a premium kind of feel to it, because a heat pump is a premium piece of equipment. They use it to heat and cool museums around the world, palaces. And so something that is just, know, like the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York uses it, Buckingham Palace uses heat pumps. So I don't know, something that...

Molly Wood:

Right.

Lauren Salz:

comes across the fact that it cools and it is awesome and it's to make your life better. But it's hard to come up with a catchy word for

Molly Wood:

Yeah, I know that's exactly. And Apple would sue us if we started calling it an eye pump, even though that would say exactly what we needed it to say.

Lauren Salz:

Yes, that would be I know that's already maybe we need Apple to come out with a hip

Molly Wood:

That's honestly, we probably do. And they'll just give it some other name that'll be like just left of obvious and we'll be like, you know, like what did they call the virtual reality? I don't know, but somehow it was perfect. They just changed it like Apple vision. I mean, come

Lauren Salz:

I I know, something like that. I mean, I do think we're much more likely to see a Tesla heat pump than an Apple heat pump. But, yeah.

Molly Wood:

Yeah, that's true. I cooling Tesla heat pump. Anyway, we're slightly off topic. know, but, also we're not though, because this is right. Like, and it feels like this is a huge part of this education campaign is that people are thinking, well, I want it. Frankly, a lot of them are just thinking I want to save money. And then there's this huge educational component of like, okay, well here's the gadget. And then they're like, yeah, but I need AC.

Lauren Salz:

That's a great topic though.

Lauren Salz:

All right, well, I think that the biggest hurdle for home electrification is the fact that most HVAC buyers are reactive, and they're in a rush when they're going to replace a system. So there's actually not a huge window to educate a consumer, which is why we think that the key people to help enable is the contractors. Your HVAC system breaks, you're going to call your local contractor. And you're probably going to go with what they recommend, because most homeowners have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to an HVAC system. Why would they? You only have to replace it every 15 years. I do think knowing about a heat pump in advance is helpful for consumer, but most people are not going to be calling around to find a contractor who does heat pumps. They're going to call around to see who can do one really fast and be competitive on price.

Molly Wood Voice-Over:

Time for a quick break. When we come back, we’ll talk a little more about what gets people to pull the trigger on decarbonizing their homes and what doesn’t.

Molly Wood Voice-Over:

Welcome back to Everybody in the Pool. We’re talking with Lauren Salz, C-E-O of Sealed who let me know it’s a little unusual for me to be planning to install a new HVAC system when mine still works just fine.

Molly Wood:

Is there, I am obviously in a bubble in many ways. I'm in Northern California. I have surrounded myself with climate conscious consumers. And so I at least know a few people, myself included, who are doing the research on how can I reduce my carbon footprint? How can I make my home more efficient for both cost savings and climate reasons? And I wonder, you're in the perfect position to know how many people like that are there and do you think that audience is growing at

Lauren Sal:

There's not a lot of people like that on a relative basis. Heap pumps are so expensive. And they do pay back for most people over time, but it's a pretty long payback period without a rebate. And one of the biggest drivers of heat pumps is what is the spread between gas and electricity prices? So if you're somewhere where gas is super cheap and electricity is super expensive,

Molly Wood:

Yeah. I mean, I haven't done it for that exact reason.

Lauren Salz:

You know, you actually might end up paying a little bit more than you did in the past for heating, heating especially, right? You won't be paying more for cooling with a heat pump. And so we definitely get regions of the country where that's case. And so that's why, you know, if it's a policy objective, then, you know, the government utility should be willing to help pay for. I think one of the things that's great about the IRI and also many utility programs is that the incentives are a lot bigger for LMI homeowners and that there's low and middle income. Exactly, much larger incentives to bring down the upfront cost and then transparency on what their energy bills will be after. Because the people who can handle at the least, if their energy bills...

Molly Wood:

That's LMI, low to middle income, yeah.

Lauren Salz:

you know, don't go down as much as they're thinking they're going to be is LMI households.

Molly Wood:

Yeah. What do you think philosophically that makes a lot of sense to me and also a lot of rich people get rich by being super stingy with their money. And so I have this kind of, I have a little bit of a philosophical objection to income caps or income caps that are where they are now, considering that you have like, you do have coastal bubbles where people make a good amount of money, but would still be more inclined to do this with a bigger rebate. I'm just curious about

Lauren Salz:

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So for the IRA and also most utility programs, high income homeowners are eligible for rebates as well. They're just multipliers if you're low and moderate income. And then typically this will be kind of rolled out state by state, but typically it's kind of like your relative income level. So it's like, you below 80 % of the median for your area? Are you between 80 % and 150 % and are you above 150

Molly Wood:

Got it. It's not like hard income caps the way that some, cause there have been some blunt tools out there that are in some ways counterproductive, you know? Cause you need adoption to price, to drive down prices. Yeah.

Lauren Salz:

No, and it did. Yeah, they're blank tools.

Lauren Salz:

correct, and you need more contractors to be excited about installing heat pumps. But we've seen a lot of success with our customers on they start by doing market rate heat pumps, and then having these large rebates available, then get some to start operating in low and moderate communities, low and moderate income communities.

Molly Wood:

Right, awesome.

Lauren Salz:

which is exactly the policy goals because, you know, it doesn't help too much to have $20 ,000 rebates available for heat pumps if you can't get a contractor to work in your neighborhood.

Molly Wood:

Yeah, totally. OK, so what is the contractor community feeling then? you finding that contractors are signing up for your program because they're like, I've been wanting to do this? I think you said it was a pretty small percentage now of contractors who are driving toward heat pumps, but what are you seeing there?

Lauren Salz:

So interesting dynamic. the first contractors using our software were kind of early adopters. People wanted to try new things. Maybe they had used some rebate programs in the past. Maybe they hadn't. But then after we kind of got things going, actually we found that around 80 % of our customers weren't using the rebate program that we help with before we came in. So we really got contractors to start using rebates who hadn't been doing so before.

And then there's people who, yes, some who've been like, I've been wanting to do rebates, or I tried in the past, and it was just too complicated, so I didn't end up doing it, or I did it and I gave up. Then we get some who basically started giving quotes to customers, and then they would lose business because their competitor was offering a large rebate and they weren't able to. But then, you know, they still don't want to go through the hassle of dealing with the rebate program and so that's when they decided to work with

Molly Wood:

Yeah, got it. And then again, since so few people know, like if you are one of the very, very, very few people who is planning ahead maybe for this, or you know that your system is getting toward end of life, is it worth waiting for some of these IRA programs to be in place?

Lauren Salz:

You know, I think that's an individual decision. think, you know, looking and unfortunately, these things are just like not quite public yet. Exactly when states are going to launch, what all the rules are going to be for the rebates. And a lot of that is kind of just, you know, talked among policy circles. I would say that there's a lot of utility dollars available and you know, so I would encourage them if they think their system is going to break soon not to wait. Because then you could be ended up kind of caught in a jam. think something that can sometimes dry out the price of systems is if you're an emergency or in a rush and you don't have the time to your due diligence. So I think at the very least, I would do all your research now and have a contractor lined up to be doing it. I certainly wouldn't wait until your system breaks because again, that's when you can make typically HVAC or not HVAC.

Molly Wood:

Right.

Lauren Salz:

driven decisions typically when you're in a rush and you need something very badly that's typically when you make the worst decisions.

Molly Wood:

Right, totally. So if you bought a house and you know it has an old system or you know your system's old, at least check it out. Yeah. OK,

Lauren Salz:

starting your research. Get in quotes so you have the people

Molly Wood:

And then what is, and the getting quotes, mean, the cynical part of like me and my ex -husband was immediately like, well, wouldn't contractors just drive up the price to maximize the rebate themselves? So is that,

Lauren Salz:

I mean, but it's still market dynamics. Like they're still competing against other contractors. yeah. Like still it's always good idea to get multiple quotes. Absolutely. And a lot of, you know, you can look up like what comes are on the internet. You can look up online how much the equipment itself costs. Now labor is a substantial cost as well, but you know, you can be an informed consumer if you're not doing something in a rush.

Molly Wood:

Right. So still get multiple quotes, people. It's basic shopping. Yeah.

Molly Wood:

Yep. OK, we've talked a lot about heat pumps. Is that the primary kind of efficiency replacement that people are doing? Are there other products and services? Are there windows? Do you traffic into any other parts of electrification or efficiency? Tex.

Lauren Salz:

Definitely weatherization, so air sealing and insulation, we think, is really, really important, especially if you're getting a heat pump, actually. What will make the heat pump the most efficient is if you have a well -insulated home. I think that's really essential for both money but also for comfort in your home. So we think that's super important. We don't use too much stuff with windows. I think windows look nice, and having a better window can save you bit of energy, but the ROI typically isn't super high just because Windows are so expensive. It'd be hard to add be high ROI on energy with anything Windows -related. Now, I've seen some companies working on a few things that could change that, but generally, like, that's just so expensive.

Molly Wood:

Right, right, so mostly insulation.

Molly Wood:

Yeah, totally. Yeah, no. I've looked into those stickers that you can put on the window, like films and coatings and things like that. OK, so insulation, anything in terms of, I don't know, thermal flooring, things like that. Are you seeing people explore any technologies like that? are you really mostly finding that contractors are focused on heat pumps? Because that's where all the money is, sounds like.

Lauren Salz:

Yeah, I mean, it's also I'll say getting an ASTRA replacement is an essential repair for a home versus sometimes flooring can be a little bit, maybe you need it, maybe you don't. And it's the same thing for weatherization as well. There's not typically an emergency that causes someone to be like, I need to get insulation today. It's more of just general discomfort that people have. And so yeah, we're focused the most on HVAC when we do stuff with weatherization as well. Floors can probably make you more comfortable. They probably don't save a ton of energy.

Molly Wood:

And then, so, okay, so homeowners who have been used to have been accustomed to sealed in the past. Is that now where they should go to find a contractor?

Lauren Salz:

So we will give contractor recommendations if people sign up through our website. What we don't do anymore is design the project and manage the installation with the contractor or finance it. But our website is a good place for people to go just for lot of content to get informed on heat pumps, what type of heat pump they might need to understand more about how to heat and cool their home. We still have a ton of great on our website. And we still do have a very top tier contractor network that we can refer people to. And we do that free of charge.

Molly Wood:

And then for contractors, great. And then for contractors, how do you get paid? Is it a chunk of the rebate or do they pay

Lauren Salz:

the contractors pass directly a fee.

Molly Wood:

Yep. Okay. And that covers kind of this software and this set of services around getting them the rebate and fronting the money upfront, right? We should be clear, you're still in the financing game

Lauren Salz:

And fronting the money upfront. Yes, definitely. And I think that's a big part of our value profits. You don't have to wait for the program to pay. You know that you'll get consistently paid by us within two weeks of install. And I think now is a great time for contractors to start learning about the IRA because it's going to be coming to almost every single state in the next 12 months.

Molly Wood:

What are, okay, but before I lay, just, I have like nerdy questions about the IRA. Like what's in there that would blow our minds? You know, I mean, what is the difference in the rebate landscape that you're seeing?

Lauren Salz:

So I think there's a couple key differences. One is just the order of magnitude of the size of these rebates. For low and moderate income homeowners, you can get up to $14 ,000 for block vacation. That's a lot of money. That's through HERA. And then through homes, it could be a couple thousand dollars. It could be $8 ,000, $10 ,000 depending on how much energy is actually saved. And so those are really big needle moving amounts. That's really unprecedented. And I think it's going to be transformative for the market landscape.

Molly Wood:

Could any of that money be rolled back if there is a change in administration?

Lauren Salz:

Should it be? No.

Molly Wood:

Yeah, because it's already been, I feel like this is a big question people have, but my understanding is it's already been distributed to states. They just have to now figure out the programs to distribute

Lauren Salz:

Yeah, exactly. It's distributed through the states. The states will sign contracts with the DOE, and the money will be committed. I'll say HOME's the particular segment of the IRA that's focused on residential energy efficiency and electrification is popular within both parties. Versus there's some other parts of IRA that are less popular with one of the political parties. again, this is a very popular piece of legislation.

Molly Wood:

Everyone wants to save money and keep the lights on. Yeah.

Lauren Salz:

Exactly. you know, especially with inflation, past several years, homeowners, especially low and moderate income homeowners are definitely struggling with their bills. And so this is, you know, it's called the Inflation Reduction Act. It is meant to help, you know, make things more affordable for homeowners.

Molly Wood:

Awesome. Lauren Salts, thank you so much. appreciate the time. The company is called Sealed, as in seal your doors and windows, people. Keep the heat in.

Lauren Salz:

Thanks for having me today.

Molly Wood Voice-Over:

That's it for this episode of Everybody in the Pool. Thank you so much for listening.

Are you thinking of installing new sustainability features in your home? Solar, battery, heat pump, insulation, anything like that? If so, email me and let me know what made you jump in and how it’s panning out. You can reach me at in at in at everybody in the pool dot com and find all the latest episodes and my newsletter at everybody in the pool dot com, the website. Also please rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts if you have a minute … and tell a friend! See you next week.